Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

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mrag
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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by mrag » September 26th, 2014, 12:56 am

This just seen on the back of a Truck
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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by InSync » September 26th, 2014, 6:23 am

I hope my kids don't see that.......
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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by mrag » September 26th, 2014, 5:19 pm

I hope my kids don't see that.......
Don't worry. Trucker Ron says it's just another Obama program that won't work anyway ;-) (that's only a test remark to make sure Freckles is still working the forum)

I think I get the drift of why Zeke would hope to die at 75. I just don't follow why he is so opposed to euthanasia. Is he worried about "mandatory" euthanasia becoming a possibility? If so he had to realize his hoping for 75 article just screams for Sarah Palin to come out of the woodwork screaming Death Panels. I mean everyone is already accusing him of further supporting such things.
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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by InSync » September 26th, 2014, 7:01 pm

He doesn't support euthanasia. He supports paying your doctor to teach you how to do it yourself. After all, you do hope to die at 75, don't you?
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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by InSync » September 27th, 2014, 5:49 am

I get it too, mrag. I don't want to live to 80 if my last 5 years are tormented by my body or my mind. In fact, I hope I don't live to 60 in that condition. I also hope I get appropriate care, not based on whether someone feels I'm worthy of the healthcare dollars, but the health benefit to me. The article you posted about changing how the medical community approaches care at the end of life, at whatever age the end of life arrives, is a much more appropriate conversation about the use of healthcare dollars.

Zeke does say he has been openly opposed to euthanasia for years. His approach with this article was really ill conceived, particularly in the context of his role in this administration. I did some research about what doctors thought about this issue and was surprised that most seemed to think euthanasia was morally and ethically wrong and in opposition to their oath to do no harm, but many said they would help their terminally ill patients or those living with intractable pain if they wanted to die. I don't consider that euthanasia and I could imagine having the conversation with my doctor. On the other hand, I don't want to have it with my insurance company, nor do I want my insurance company to have it with my doctor.

On a completely unrelated note, the eloquent Sarah Palin made an interesting comment yesterday.
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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by David882 » September 27th, 2014, 6:37 am

InSunc:
InSync wrote: I did some research about what doctors thought about this issue and was surprised that most seemed to think euthanasia was morally and ethically wrong and in opposition to their oath to do no harm

i did know that med schools even required one to take the "oath" anymore.
My brother did not take it, as was true for most of his med class, and that was the mid 1970's.
The oath was offered but one was allowed to stand silent.
The original Hippocratic oath forbid abortion and required that one had to respect the gods...it is an interesting read.
The Modern version of the Hippocratic oath is perhaps hippocratic-lite.

There is always a doctor who will do what you ask...just write the check.
So the point being in the world of situational driven value systems, one just has to make the right argument to justify the money.
If one makes the argument that euthanasia is nothing more than a late term abortion; I suspect there is a doctor who will take the money.
With Respect,
David

11 Sept 2012 / Idiopathic Ventricular Fibrillation
At about 2AM I started storming at home, and in the ambulance, and in the ER.
Sometimes I restated and sometimes I had to be defibrillated.
A number of times I went into arrest and stopped breathing.
External defibrillation count exceeded 18 and at some point the team induced a coma.
24 hours later I was revived and have never had another event.
13 Sept 2012 / Medtronic ICD was implanted.
My diagnosis is still idiopathic.

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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by freckles1880 » September 27th, 2014, 7:48 am

I think we have run this article over the coals a lot. When it comes to euthanasia, I believe there is also a lot of opinions on what it really is. Suicide vs not being kept alive by machines and medications when they will no longer really help the person live a real life. Quality of life I think is actually being able to function at least as well as you want to or should be able to. That may be different for different folks. I don't want to be "put to death" as such but I don't want to be a vegetable on tubes either. I believe that the Hospice teams do very well in their duties, keeping a person comfortable in their final days.

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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by David882 » September 27th, 2014, 8:59 am

Freckles 1880:

I am not interested in the "State" determining anyone's life expectancy by way of proactive intervention. My reasons are primarily driven by the many historical examples of the "State" abusing of such power.

i have had, for decades, a living will and a power of attorney that empowers my wife to enforce and execute the living will. The living will establishes clear boundaries for when medical/human intervention must stop. On 11 Sept 2012 my wife was almost forced to execute that authority, until the DRs assured her that their efforts would result in a binary result. That is I would live or die but no in between and so she allowed them to put me into a comma. Yet, I have a difficult time with proactive euthanasia wherein I or someone takes an action that ends my/anyone's life. So i am not a supporter of direct intervention to cause a persons death. However, my willingness to halt human intervention that only prolongs/sustain a life of pain or in a vegetative state could be viewed as a form of passive euthanasia.

If I set the management and control of intervention into my own hands then perhaps I am more comfortable.

I also agree that we have indeed looked hard at euthanasia. However, it is of value to consider such topics not so much because we will discover the answer in situational based ethics. Instead it may help all of us deal with our own mortality in a way that does not cripple loved ones left behind. By this i mean that my living will establishing my decision for my wife to enforce, if i can not. That is she is not making the decision, I am. So she should hold no remorse for acting as my agent.

As well, having been dead, i have been given an advantage only in that i have experienced where I am going in addition to my conviction by faith alone.
With Respect,
David

11 Sept 2012 / Idiopathic Ventricular Fibrillation
At about 2AM I started storming at home, and in the ambulance, and in the ER.
Sometimes I restated and sometimes I had to be defibrillated.
A number of times I went into arrest and stopped breathing.
External defibrillation count exceeded 18 and at some point the team induced a coma.
24 hours later I was revived and have never had another event.
13 Sept 2012 / Medtronic ICD was implanted.
My diagnosis is still idiopathic.

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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by InSync » September 27th, 2014, 4:32 pm

Point taken, Freckles. But, I hope we never stop talking about it. At this time, when consumers of healthcare dollars are scrutinized and the health data market is becoming lucrative, we are very vulnerable. I hope we are all diligent about watching what policy makers and those who have influence over us are up to.

David - I went to a white coat ceremony at a local medical school about 6 years ago and while the oath wasn't specifically spoken, there was a phrase about not deliberately causing harm. In my field, intent is fundamentally important. That made me smile.
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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by David882 » September 27th, 2014, 5:13 pm

InSync:

You make an interesting point. How can I promise to do no harm, that assumes that i always know the outcome. I had not considered the idea that intent should be the fulcrum on which one assesses a given decision. Of course my Grandmother used to express a view about good intentions and the road to hell...;)
With Respect,
David

11 Sept 2012 / Idiopathic Ventricular Fibrillation
At about 2AM I started storming at home, and in the ambulance, and in the ER.
Sometimes I restated and sometimes I had to be defibrillated.
A number of times I went into arrest and stopped breathing.
External defibrillation count exceeded 18 and at some point the team induced a coma.
24 hours later I was revived and have never had another event.
13 Sept 2012 / Medtronic ICD was implanted.
My diagnosis is still idiopathic.

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mrag
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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by mrag » January 19th, 2015, 3:02 pm

A little on the same side as the original article (thus the reason for continuing here). Food for discussion if you will. The title this time is WHY DON'T MORE PEOPLE KILL THEMSELVES? and a brief synopsis is:
Option A: You live 34,748 days. Your final four weeks are spent in and out of hospital, alternating between discomfort and semi-consciousness, entirely dependent on family members and health care providers for assistance with every basic function. You die in hospital or in a nursing home. The cost of home care, hospital services, and medications over this period depletes your estate by thousands of dollars.

Option B: You live 34,720 days–that is, 28 days less. The 28 days you give up are those last four weeks just described. You die at home. The money you save helps put a grandchild (or great grandchild) through college.
Enjoy the fun topic. Cheers everyone.
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking

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Re: Book Club: Why I Hope to Die at 75

Post by Colin Pearson » January 19th, 2015, 3:58 pm

Just reply to it and it should come back...

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